The Property Unleashed Podcast

Smart Property Management Will Transform Your Investment Returns With John Brogden

• Mark Fitzgerald • Episode 307

Share episode

Send us a text

John Brogdon shares how he transformed from physiotherapist to property entrepreneur by building a successful service accommodation management business that delivers higher returns for landlords while preserving their valuable assets.

• Started with a simple house-hack in 2014, letting rooms to professionals that covered mortgage and bills
• Leveraged capital growth after 8 years to expand into service accommodation
• Chose the management model over rent-to-rent for better risk profile and faster ROI
• Currently managing 10 service accommodation units across Leeds, Bradford and Harrogate
• Delivers approximately 20% more net profit for landlords compared to traditional letting
• Takes security deposits and performs ID checks to minimize risks and protect properties
• Targets longer bookings from business travelers to improve profitability and reduce wear
• Plans to expand into supported living to offer landlords multiple investment options
• Recommends "graded exposure" approach – small, consistent improvements compound over time
• Suggests attending property networking events regularly to build momentum and connections
• Offers creative solutions for beginners to secure their first clients despite competition

If you have buy-to-let properties in West Yorkshire or Harrogate and want to explore potentially higher returns through serviced accommodation without the hassle of managing it yourself, reach out to John at Peer 24 Homes through the link in the show notes.

Johns Newsletter link; https://substack.com/home/post/p-157959087


Email for any inquires : info@pier24homes.com 


Johns Facebook : https://en-gb.facebook.com/people/John-Brogden/pfbid031TJF1bqKPhehXWcVLg5P2nZRfxANrx3K9txw5Z7JxLEtJqT7yBY1HQw4gq1SNqTbl/



VALUABLE RESOURCES:


CONNECT WITH ME:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mark.fitzgerald.7921
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/markfitzgeraldentrepreneur/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-fitzgerald-59200079/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgwQNC72nEJQ0tKkKERdQOQ
Threads: https://www.threads.net/@markfitzgeraldentrepreneur

http://www.thepropertyunleashed.com

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Property Unleashed with me your host, mark Fitzgerald, and today I have an amazing guest. It's only taken me a couple of years to get this lad to come and join me on the podcast, but I've got John Brogdon joining me today from Peer 24 Homes. That's his property investing company and he's going to tell you all about it. Great to have you on, john. How are you today?

Speaker 2:

I'm super Mark. How are you doing?

Speaker 1:

I'm good. I'm good, all the better, for seeing you, my friend, as I've known you for quite a few years now, so it's great. So for people listening or watching this, john, tell us a bit about yourself.

Speaker 2:

So my name's John. I'm based in Leeds, west Yorkshire. I'm originally from the North West. Myself and my wife, emma, we've got the property management business in the main that specialises in service accommodation, and we do have some house as well. Um, the property management business got started in 2022 and we've now grown that to 10 units, so the bulk of them are service accommodation properties. Um, that's between leeds, uh, harrogate and bradford as well. We've just got a couple more pending as well this month, which is really cool. So a nice six bed en suite in Bradford and then another property in Leeds just on the back of the hospital, which we're super optimistic for.

Speaker 1:

Brilliant, brilliant, great stuff, great stuff. So I always like to find out. You know what sort of brought you into property? What were you doing just before you know you've really started to build your property business?

Speaker 2:

yes, that's the thing. So my background's in physiotherapy and how I got started in property was, um, I bought my own place in leeds when I moved there in 2014 and, as you know, the kind of price points of properties then were a lot cheaper. So the entry to get started was a little bit easier at the time and I was living in a house share and I kind of thought this looks a viable option because I could see kind of what landlord was taking per room each month. So I bought a four bed back to back near the train station so we could get in and out of Leeds pretty handy in 10 minutes, and so I let the three rooms out to other working professionals that covered.

Speaker 2:

You know your mortgage costs your bills and that was a super way to get started as well and I think for somebody who's kind of torn you you know we've got the deposit monies either to buy rental property or to buy the first home. That is a viable way to get started. You know, whether you rent out a couple of rooms to friends or other professionals who are working, there's some really good tax breaks. You know your first seven and a half thousand pounds of income from a lodger is tax free, so that's a cool way to get going and, to be honest, I didn't do anything for the best part of seven, eight years, but then you kind of saw the power of property with the capital growth and I think that's when maybe, as we first met Mark was that 2021 and then that's when can you give us a help and guidance on how to convert that HMO into high cash flow and property?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I remember you know, as I say, our paths crossed and everything. You joined the Rent2Rent business builder, which is predominantly all about HMOs and things. And then I remember, you know, whilst you were out there, you were looking at opportunities and things. You really wanted to convert your home first and sort of put proof in the pudding, so to speak. Wasn't it get that set up, get that ran, and that was your main project going on at that time as well, and you did that very successfully, didn't you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So that one went really well and you know, we had a look at the floor plans together, got a handle on what we could do, so we took that from a four bedroom, one bathroom and we put in two en-suites and we really drove the spec of the property up to command, you know, higher rents but provide a great product for the tenants as well, and in return, you attracted really good tenants like accountants and doctors and teachers.

Speaker 2:

And the powerful thing was, just as we were kind of finishing the back end of the refurb, the mortgage term was up and a combination of capital growth and the refurb, the property was essentially, you know, double in value compared to what we purchased in 2014. And then that funded the next two ventures as well. And that's when we transitioned into a service accommodation model and I think at that time for us, you could and you still can do definitely you could get a really good ROI on the short stay unit, above and beyond what we could do with the HMOs and our budget at the time, and that'll be when we got started on the ultimate SA business model as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so you've sort of been through the cycle of my products, haven't you? But it's great because it's all good learning, isn't it? And of course, you've moved into the SA now most people are. When they're thinking of, you know, serviced accommodation, they're all about rent to SA, which is the buzzword. Everybody thinks thinks rent to rent SA, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I always like to say and myself and Graham also like to teach that there's four different fundamentally ways that you can do. There's probably a bit more, actually, but four that we like to show everybody of mainly the most cost effective ways but equally the best ROI for the investors, ie us and, of course, helping people at the same time as well. So you've sort of got into the service accommodation side of it. I know you know you sort of find your feet, you find your passion in everything, don't you? And you've gone down the management road with that as well, haven't you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's right. So we don't have any rent-to-rents at all and I think they're both great models. Whether you're doing the management model or the rent-to-rent model, I think you've just got to be considerate of what suits your personality and perhaps your risk tolerance better. I don't know if you've come across Morgan Household, Mark, his books and his podcast.

Speaker 1:

No, I don't think so.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so he did the Psychology of Money money book. So that's an awesome book. And, um, one thing he touches on, he's a he's, he's a big investor and he's been writing for years and years. But he, he goes on about if you're whether you're building a business or you're making an investment, you don't necessarily go for the thing that absolutely kind of squeezes a queen's head off a pound coin. It's also what allows you to sleep at night.

Speaker 2:

So one apprehension for us with a rent to rent model is, obviously you've got the liability of a guaranteed rent and now if you run your numbers right and you stack the deals right, you know your grand. But there is a small risk there. With the management model you don't have that risk and liability. As a consequence, you won't make as much money on a deal. But you could still do anywhere from 400, say, to 800 a month on a management deal. That would still be very realistic. So, yeah, and it's a good thing and I know we spoke about it before as well like you, we often talk about what's your return on an investment and if you said, like I got all my money out in six months on a rent to rent, you'd be absolutely buzzing, wouldn't you now? If you compare that to a management deal, you get all your money out in one month, so you can build and scale quickly definitely, definitely now, of course, we go through that.

Speaker 1:

On the ultimate service accommodation business builder, did you when you join that? Obviously you're already in our, so to speak, cohort, you're in our groups as well and you've always been very active in there in the community and things. I'm very strong on the communities and stuff. But, um, yeah, I mean, as I say, there's a lot of people that will show you how to do rent to sa and things. When, when you came in and did that training did, did you get like the light bulb moment, think, oh, do you know what what they're showing and how they show? Because it is about building an sa business. That's fundamentally. There's different ways you can acquire the properties, but the SA business setup is obviously, uh, the nuts and bolts of what you really, as as property investors, want to know about, because there's a lot of moving parts in SA.

Speaker 2:

But, um, yeah, when you started to find out more and, of course, talking to Graham and things on coaching calls and stuff, and he's very, very big into the management- side of things is that where you sort of thought this is the right thing for us yeah, definitely, because I mean, what you'll get on that course is just absolute clarity and you'll you'll get a roadmap. So it's like a step-by-step guide. And you know, I think a lot of people have done some pretty crappy weekend courses and you kind of come away from it. You feel inspired. Uh, you might spend a few thousand pounds and then you've got no. Uh, you've got no follow-up support as well, as the thing was like with what you and graham are running.

Speaker 2:

You've got the facebook group, you've got the frequent calls, you've got the online resources. You can work through it at your own pace, whether you're going super hard and fast or you're going steady away, and again, that suits whether you've got somebody young and single, or perhaps somebody who's got a couple of kids, right. And the other big benefit is your questions change, don't they? Mark? You'll know this from when you've built your rent-to-rent business. But the questions you've got on day one might look very different at day 30 and day 90, and you're not kicked out. You're there forever. And whether it's you and Graham answering the questions, or Zach or Danny or somebody else, it might be somebody who's just two steps forward from you who's giving you the hints and tips right, or you've got Graham at 200 plus units, so you kind of just got the length and breadth of it.

Speaker 2:

But I mean for me, like when we started this, the goal when we come on the course was to buy our first SA unit, convert it and then the second, and you know we've accomplished that. But when you see what other people are up to, you realize the SA management or the rent to rent thing is also a cool thing to explore because, if you know, we was running our own SA properties. We're doing a good job of it. Well, we can deliver that for landlords as well. And I think it was on the Joe Rogan podcast with, like Kevin Hart and um, we were discussing, like once one door opens, you go into a new room, don't you? And like that new room's got all sorts of opportunities, and then once you get established in there, there's another door isn't there, and then you're into another room with bigger opportunities. Because I mean, I bet when you started mark with the hmo rent to rent business, you didn't think you'd have a digital business and you'd be partnered with graham, like these things just kind of grow, don't they?

Speaker 1:

There's opportunities everywhere. You've hit the nail on the head there, because when I worked in my corporate job, I always thought, oh, it's going to be difficult out there. I don't. You know, you're going to find opportunities, it's not going to be, and there's a lot of negativity, a lot of doubt, a lot of fear that goes into those things. But once you actually step out there, it's the best thing I've ever done Because, exactly like you say, there are so many opportunities out here Now some of those opportunities won't suit what you want to do.

Speaker 1:

Some of those opportunities can be dead ends as well, and that's just a part and parcel of life. But equally to that, there's going to be some amazing opportunities, some amazing people that you can team up with, that you can work with, which, I have to say, you know, if you'd have said to me five, six, seven years ago you'd be working with and teamed up with people like Graham, you know, people like Simon, all of those great people as well, I would have laughed at you because I couldn't see it on the horizon. But by putting myself out there and in the right situations and just being you know, just being me, I think to a point it's great and a lot for me is all about the community, and I always wanted to put and so did Graham as well, and that's why we do this with our trainings that you know you don't lose access to the training and if we update it, you get that updated version. Why? Because you've invested in it. You deserve to be kept updated with things Also communities. Nobody deserve to be kept updated with things.

Speaker 1:

Also communities. Nobody has to pay extra, nobody has to do anything. You stay in those communities, ask questions anytime you want. Like you say, you can ask questions when you start. You can ask questions two or three years on. We're all here to help each other and it's not just us now, like you say, that are answering the questions. There's other people now that have got their experiences and, of course, we can grow and help each other in our businesses through all of our experience.

Speaker 1:

None of us absolutely none of us know everything and we don't need to. But nine times out of 10,. If you've got a great community and a great mixture of people that are all pushing to get to where they want to get to at different stages and at different speeds, it can be a great, great place to be in and that's what we try and help, facilitate and obviously push on as well, because it helps us, it helps you, it helps the people that we serve and work with as well. So I love the fact that you because obviously you see it from a different set of eyes than I see it I know what I'm putting together and what we want to be doing. But it's great to get that sort of feedback, to be able to hear that it is moving in the right direction and, of course, it has helped you to achieve what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I completely agree with you. With that kind of community vibe it's a really powerful thing. Maybe it's when, if you're in a bit of a lull with something you know, you'll get carried with the momentum of your colleagues who are up to the same stuff, because everybody has the same challenges and you know similar kind of successes as you go through. Uh, you know the training deliberately but, um, yeah, you've certainly executed a really good product brilliant so.

Speaker 1:

So what's your sort of the vision and goals for for yourself as you're going forward now?

Speaker 2:

so I mean in terms of the service accommodation management business, you know we're just putting the foot back on the gas now because we've had my beautiful daughter arrive seven months ago, so it's been a spectacular time for us. Rather than try and you know, recruit new units while we're focusing on her, you know we prioritise just managing what we'd got super well and delivering a really good product to the landlords. Now we're kind of just nudging forward again. So we've got two new units which are dropping any time this month. Both SA management and, to be quite honest with you, looking at three to four SA units a year would be more than adequate for what we're looking at doing.

Speaker 2:

We're not, we don't want to become the like a big corporate SA letting agency. I think one thing that's worked really well for us is it's a bespoke model where the landlords got got easy access to the business owners, and I think this is for somebody who's just getting started. The advantage you've got over somebody who's got, say, 200 units is speed of access. I'm sure you've come across it yourself, mark, where if you've used a letting agent in the past, you call through to reception. We don't know who you are, we don't know who your property is. To get hold of a person you need to speak to takes 48 hours. So that's where we cut all of that out.

Speaker 2:

So kind of steady growth of the SA management business. And we are transitioning into supported living as well. So that's the next steps. We'll be at a point where, say, if you've got a buy-to-let property, your margins are tight with kind of higher mortgage rates. We'll be able to say, well, will your property perform better as SA? Will it perform better as supported living? We'll sort that out for you and answer those problems for you. So that's what we'll be up to in the next 12 months.

Speaker 1:

Brilliant. I love it. And what areas are you covering?

Speaker 2:

So we're all of West Yorkshire and we do creep up to Harrogate and Nursbury as well. So those are the kind of key locations. Okay that's cool.

Speaker 1:

So I mean a lot of people at the moment are interested in all of the different strategies that are out there and things. But one thing I like to touch on with serviced accommodation. You see I've got both. I like the hmos because pretty much when people are in there I know exactly what I'm making each and every month. And I know it can be a bit of a concern for people when they're doing serviced accommodation that it is a little bit more, so to speak, seasonal. You know you are going to have good times, you are going to have leaner times as well, and that is just part and parcel of the business.

Speaker 1:

But for people that are starting out I mean you've been doing this a while now for people that are starting out, you know when you do start, depending on the time of the year that you start. So some people I see we see ourselves, don't we? They start it's just like wow, look at this, I'm just printing money. Absolutely easy, this I should have done this years ago. And then you maybe you get around at a time where it's a bit leaner and now they're just like hold on a minute, it's all stopped, what's happened? You know what I mean. So for people that are getting into this sort of thing. What are you? How are you finding the market is one of the questions at the moment. Let's just go with that. How are you finding it at the moment?

Speaker 2:

so the sa market is still strong in terms of where it's up to say, compared to two years ago now there is a greater supply of good quality properties on the market. So when you're setting your properties up, you do need to make sure you're good on your numbers. So, running your due diligence in terms of speaking to people who are operating, whether rent-to-rent operators, whether you've just got one or two properties you look after themselves, or a management agency get a good handle on terms of what the nightly rate is and what your typical occupancy might be for that kind of type of property, and then what your outgoings are as well. So you need to be really hot on that. So you do need to be considerate of your winter months. So things do taper down.

Speaker 2:

I'd probably say January is your slowest month and then it starts to get going again. But I do completely agree with you. When the summer months come, you feel like an absolute expert, don't you? And a winner, and then it does slow down at the back end of the year. I mean, one good thing is using uh, you like something like property market intel or dna, because what they'll give you is, um, you know, a third handle on how that property or a similar property is performing over a 12 month period and they'll give you the average nightly rate and the average occupancy. So you can kind of get a better handle on things rather than just running your deals on best case scenarios yeah, yeah, and of course it is, and it's running almost like you say there.

Speaker 1:

I mean the way that graham puts it out as well, because graham told me how to do service accommodation. It looking over the 12 months, isn't it? It's looking at different peaks and troughs. You know what are your occupancies, like you say. You know property, market, intel, airdna and things. Don't just look at, oh, this is what we're going to earn. Have a look at. Oh well, what's it going to be like? Worst case scenario.

Speaker 1:

And I always think, if you can handle worst case case scenario, look at that and say, well, you know, three months we're going to be breaking even or a slight loss, but in those other months we're going to be making so much more and it's a good deal to be doing, isn't it? And you've got to remember when you're in those trenches that those months do exist. It's not going to, you know, it's not going to keep going forever. So it's great to hear that the market, you're enjoying it it.

Speaker 1:

So when you take a property on john, your business comes in, you're working with a landlord. They need your help and support. They they're going to use your management service, which anybody in those areas should be reaching out to you and we'll put links in the show notes as well so you can reach out to john's company and have a chat with them and it's just a conversation to see how they can help you. When you so, let's just say I'm a landlord, i've've said, john, I want to work with you and everything. I've got a four-bed house or something like that, something that you're taking on, or a flat or whatever. What's the sort of process? How long do you think it will be for me to start seeing returns and things like that in your experience?

Speaker 2:

I mean, you'll see returns quite quickly. The only niggly bits is just getting the property set up to the standards. So say, if it was a buy to let, it's probably not furnished, isn't it? So the only kind of lull you're going to have is that time to furnish your property, to get it up to fire regs. But generally speaking, you can do that alongside the interior design with a matter of a few weeks, can't you? So the landlord might lose a month or so of income potentially, um, but the landlords were working with the deals.

Speaker 2:

After our management fee and their expenses, they're typically coming in again, averaged out over 12 months of the year, about 20 percent more net profit than the comparable buy to let. And again, perhaps, say that first month where you go live will just ease in gently because you want to get some good quality reviews. You might taper the pricing down by 5% to 10% compared to where you might have it normally to get the bookings in. And equally, the way we set the calendar up as well is a bit more assertively, particularly if it's a property in and around the city centre. It's a lot more lucrative if you can get the longer bookings right.

Speaker 2:

So people coming for business. It's not just necessarily tradesmen, it's people in suits coming for all different reasons. And if you've got guys staying for a week, a month longer, that's really powerful because you negate the clean fees, don't you? If you've got guys staying for a week, a month longer, that's really powerful because you negate the clean fees, don't you? If you've got heaps of clean fees in a month, it'll really drag your profit down. So say, if you're looking to book a month in advance, as a guest dependent on the property would have like a minimum five night stay or perhaps a bit longer. So you're really enticing those longer bookings, which is, you know, it's good for everybody involved. The higher turnover model, I'd probably say, comes with a bit more wear and tear as well. You know people are just coming for a night or two, you know, potentially for a leery weekend on the beer, isn't it? Whereas if somebody comes for a couple of weeks, they're coming for business, right. So that's a cool way to go about it.

Speaker 1:

No, I like that, I like that. And of course, the other thing to take into account is the wear and tear of a property. You know your asset as a landlord when you use a management company like John's is that it's maintained to a high standard. Yes, you know, if you let it out as a buy to let you know, you will get the money coming through and stuff. But also by the end of the 12 months somebody moves out and most of the times you know it's not always well, it's not maintained.

Speaker 1:

It's not always maintained to the greatest of standards, is it? Depending on the tenant types and everything it can be. You know you're having to replace carpets and things. Now you might have had a deposit, but most of that time that doesn't really cover everything that needs to be done, god forbid. Hopefully they do leave it as a way that they've got it. But equally to that, to be able to have it managed and maintained to a high standard and basically just setting it up is great and it already set up ready to rock and roll. So if I had an empty property and I said to you, john, I'm thinking of doing serviced accommodation using your company, do you have a service or anything where you'll help me set the property up, or is it just basically, once it's set up, we can come in there and we'll take care of the rest?

Speaker 2:

yeah. So the landlords we've worked with in the past, we've, um, we've helped with everything from, you know, sourcing the linen, uh, the fixtures and furnishing, because, uh, you know, speed kills in business, doesn't it? So the sooner you can get these things done, the sooner everybody can start earning money and then it becomes a productive business, doesn't it right? So there's nothing worse than say, if a landlord's got a vacant property and you know he's a busy guy and he's muddling through trying to set a property up, when you're thinking we could have probably got it done in two weeks, it's took you six. So we help our landlords get live and then transition quickly into getting bookings in the diary.

Speaker 2:

And I mean just kind of touching back on what we're discussing there, mark and we are in the minority of service accommodation management groups who do deliver this service, and this is something you know graham strongly recommends, and you know I couldn't agree with him. More is, you should be taking security deposits for your bookings. Um, the guest should be, you know, doing some shape or form of id check, electronically signing your terms and conditions. You can do it in a matter of minutes. It's super easy once you're set up and systemised. That is, but your chance of getting the house parties, the risk, is just absolutely diminished.

Speaker 2:

I know landlords and the properties take heavy wear and tear as SA, and the first thing I'll always say to them when we're at the Leeds Property Investors Network, then it will be. Do you take a security deposit? Do you have terms and conditions? Do you do an ID check? And if the answer is no, you're just leaving yourself open. So get your business robust, and that's what we offer all our landlords as well. Yeah, it's not just as easy as getting property, stick it on airbnb and letting the money roll in. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? So, um, when it's organized and structured like that, you can go great guns that's it.

Speaker 1:

It's just having the systems in place, isn't it? And being able to do that, and, of course, you know the help and support from others as well that have been there and done it, because, as the old saying goes, you don't know what you don't know and I think I find that, with a lot of people that come up to me and say, well, I've some people come up to me and say I've done this rent to rent deal.

Speaker 1:

It's not a great deal, and I'm just like, well, how did you know how to do it like that? Well, I didn't. I've just listened to you, know some podcasts, watch some youtube videos and things like that got a contract off of facebook, uh, and I'm now doing it. Can you help me? And it's just like well, first and foremost, have you got break clauses in your contracts? Have you? You know, have you set this up? Have you set that up? How is that looking? And like I didn't even know I had to do that. And it's just like oh, come on now. So you know, sometimes paying for a bit of education actually saves you a fortune in the long run and, of course, speeds up your results and things. And I mean you're sat here now, john, and I'm chatting to you, you know, on par with service accommodation, because you're living and breathing it. But you weren't like that in the very beginning, were you, so to speak. So it's stages and it's building up that confidence as well, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I completely agree with you, and I think there's a lot of moving parts to the service accommodation model. And you know the chap you were kind of talking about there like he's running a hobby, isn't he? That's not a business, but he's got a big liability nonetheless, hasn't he? Whereas it's a very tricky thing to get started in SA if you don't have clarity about what you need to do, both from stacking a deal right to the back end to the bookkeeping on something like zero and there's a hell of a lot in the middle, isn't there? And yeah, that's what you get with the SA course you and Graham deliver is just that step-by-step guide. The roadmap questions whether you're at step one or step 10, you'll get it worked out easy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's what it should be. And, of course, if you have any other problems, you just ask, don't you Just ask the questions and we're here to help and support, but it is, and, of course, staying tapped into those as well means that you've still got that plateau.

Speaker 1:

I always like to think of it as you've still got that plateau. I always like to think of it as you've got a team in your corner. Yes, you know. So you've been doing this a while now and you're getting out there now as a service accommodation expert, which is rightly so, and I'm always like a proud father when I see people doing as well as you have, and I always keep an eye out and you know it's great to pop in and see you as well. You know if you are based in, you know North Yorkshire and you're going to go out to a property networking event, go to the Leeds PIN meeting, because John is one of the team there, aren't you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's it. So we've got a really cohesive team. It's David Dixon who hosts and leads the event and it's a really powerful thing to you know, whether you're just getting started or you've got a small to large property portfolio or whatever, you can get so much out of it. And that's that's not just for people like myself who are offering services. It's whether you're looking to find your first rent to rent, buy, your first buy to let. It gives you momentum. It gives you momentum, which is there's a lot to be said for, because it can be a lonely business, can't it?

Speaker 2:

Property Mark, I'm sure you've experienced that yourself and when you hear what other people are up to, it just kind of carries you along, doesn't it? And I'd strongly recommend to anyone who's just getting started I'd go to one property networking event a month minimum. You know, if you can do two, great, but keep going to the same one because you want to get to know other people there. You know, if you, if you really kind of apprehensive about things and you're not sure you know, just go there to learn and make friends. You know, I've made some great friends from going to these events and it's the same thing again. You know. You don't know what doors will open in nine months time, or a year or two that's.

Speaker 1:

It's all the people that you meet. You know dave, who's the host there. I did mastermind with dave. You know he's a great lad, uh, very giving, very generous with his time and stuff, always looking to help people as well. Very knowledgeable lad, sarah sarah mullins, who, uh, I've just seen her last couple of days actually, uh, she's another one that helps out. So it's great.

Speaker 1:

I mean any any pin meeting is a great place to go. And I would say you know there are other property networking events out there not always is good, but any networking event is good when you're getting out there and meeting the right people. Uh, and when I say the right people, it's really just people that are genuine, that are out there to try and do something for themselves, that are just looking to connect with people and they're just open and honest about what they're up to and what they're doing and things. Because it's all about relationships. Property, we always think it's bricks and mortar. It's not. It's about relationships and it's about getting out there making good relationships with people and seeing where it takes you. So I mean it's great. Looking at your business, you've now got your plan going forward. You've got your young daughter, young family as well, which is great. I'm super, super happy for you both with that and that obviously for me sharpen my pencil, obviously having children thinking about the longer term.

Speaker 1:

What do I want to leave my kids, so to speak?

Speaker 1:

How do I want to be there? And we want time, freedom as well, to be able to enjoy them growing up, and, of course, property can help you with that. So, yeah, like I say, if anybody in the area has any buy to let properties or even any property problems, then reach out to John, because he's in the market for helping and supporting all sorts of landlords with different properties and you know he's not looking at taking everything on every last thing. It's got to be the right property. So he's not one of those that'll just grab any old property and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which so many people will do. John knows his numbers, he knows his areas and, of course, he can talk to you about that. And I think the one thing is, john and I know you and I know you'll do this this is what I can say is, even if it's not the right property, maybe in the right area, or the right thing to do, you'll still try and steer and point that person in the right direction, won't you?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I completely agree, because I mean we've had the benefit where we've been after several years, and you do build up that network, don't you? So, um, even if it's not necessarily something that's in my field of expertise, I'll either know somebody or you know David will know somebody that can point you in the right direction. We've had a chap who's done a couple of refurbs that we outsource stuff to. He did a brilliant job for getting one of the SA units live that we now manage for our landlords. That was right from scratch, so we're not just talking about interior decor. That was a reasonable size refurb but that landlord got everything boxed off. He went to Leeds Pin, he got the guy who does the refurbs and the guy who does the management.

Speaker 1:

So start to finish. So there's a lot to be said for that, isn't there? Yeah, definitely, definitely. Cool series, cool series. That's amazing. So what I like to do because this is my podcast and I can do it is I like to ask my guest a few questions at the end. You're all right with that? Yeah, of course man cool, cool, cool, cool cool. So what's the best advice you've been given?

Speaker 2:

best advice. I think one thing I really subscribe to is uh, do you know that kind of graded exposure, whether, um, you've read the book, haven't you? Is it, jeff? Alson, the slight edge, yeah, so I mean, even I've memorized this. But if you're one tenth of one percent better five days a week, that equates to half a percent better each week, which equates to two percent better each month, 26 better a year and a thousand percent better in 10 years, and that grows.

Speaker 2:

And that might just be on kind of a day-to-day thing. It might be that you just speak to the mortgage broker and get the next steps with your mortgage sorted. It might look like odds and ends, doesn't it day-to-day, but it quickly accumulates. And a cool one that Gary Nielsen, who's one of the PIN team members I really like. He said run your own race, because I think sometimes it's easy to get hung up on, isn't it? You could see somebody who's done multiple big deals and then you can think, oh Christ, I'm way off the pace. But again, jordan Peterson said compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not anybody else. So that's a, that's a cool thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, definitely. I always say the same thing you are, you know, don't compare yourself to anybody else. You are where you need to be and if that's further forward, then you need to push yourself further forward. But don't just think, because they're there, I've got to be there as well. So I love all of that. That's brilliant, brilliant. So if you could have dinner with three people dead or alive anybody in the world who would you like to sit down and have a chat with over food?

Speaker 2:

So it's a good question, this one, and I suppose more of a personal one. I didn't get to spend too much time with even my granddad, so they would both be there. And then the final seat I would go for Howard Marks. I don't know if you've come across much of his stuff. He produces some really good content. Well, he's a very successful business owner in America and he buys Distressed Debt. He's done a couple of fantastic books, but some of his musings are absolutely exceptional. Do you know how you can listen and read to Warren Buffett's stuff? I'd say Howard Marks is similar to that, but I just really like his nous and clarity on things.

Speaker 1:

Nice? No, I've not heard of him. I'll have to have a look at that. That's why I ask these questions. That's why I ask these questions. So do you have a top three podcast you like to listen?

Speaker 2:

uh, shane parish does uh farnham street and he's an awesome uh podcast host. I'll probably alongside yourself, mark and uh and joe rogan and co. But, um, yeah, shane's podcast is brilliant. So you'll get some of like uh people from all different walks of life, whether it's elite nutritionists, exercise specialists, business owners and, um, the level of questioning is brilliant because his angle is, if you listen to the podcast, you can learn from their mistakes, because he'll talk about all the gory details of where things went wrong when they're building these huge businesses. And, uh, you know, if you listen attentively, you can apply that to your business and life as well.

Speaker 2:

And then I'll probably go for the property podcast as well, with the two robs, I think, just for keeping your finger on the pulse with property regulations and where the market's up to interest rates and inflation. That's the easiest way to stay up to date for me. 20 minutes a week, that's really cool. And then, finally, I'd go for Morgan Housel. So he was the author of I was on about it earlier. He did the Psychology of Money, but I think he lends a really nice angle on investing in psychology Because I mean, you could say look what's Bitcoin done in the past 12 months. Is it up 50%, 60%, 70%? I'm not sure. But you wouldn't put all your money in Bitcoin, would you? And it's about that kind of you know what suits you and what suits your family as well.

Speaker 1:

Nice Good, I like that. I like that. Got top three books.

Speaker 2:

With the books. I'd go. 12 Rules for Life with Jordan Peterson, just for kind of absolute clarity on what you're looking to do. James, clear Atomic Habits, habits again, that's just a manual. So if you I've been here myself and I'm sure other people have but if you, if you're struggling to like organize your diary, you've got busy life commitments, you're building whatever your property business or something else, it'll just help you structure your week and again things will start to grow quite quickly on the back of that if you stick with it. Whether you're a property business or something else, it'll just help you structure your week and again things will start to grow quite quickly on the back of that if you stick with it. And the final one I'll go Rob Dick's price of money, particularly if you're a property investor or an aspiring one. If you can get a handle on inflation, interest rates why the government prints money you'll be in such a stronger position for the next financial wobble and I think if you can get your head around that you can go far.

Speaker 1:

Brilliant, brilliant. That's great recommendations. So thank you ever so much for that. I'll check a lot of those out myself.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the things there that you a lot of stuff that you listen to is property orientated, but it's also business. I always like to say the same thing. I sound like a broken record, but if you're setting up and you're getting involved in property now, treat it as a business. Don't have it as a hobby. Systemize it, set it up, making sure that you're compliant in everything that you're doing, because there's a lot of pitfalls out there for a lot of people and that depends, and that really goes for any strategy that you're looking at trying to do. You've got to do what's right for your own circumstances.

Speaker 1:

But, yeah, you've got to set it up and run it as a business, which you've done brilliantly, john, and I take my hat off to you as well. You've been, you know, you've always been connected. You're always out there, you're always generous with your time, willing to help people, point people in the right direction, and I'm sure that the landlords that are working you know or you're working with or working with you at the moment, whether you're working for them, they're working for you or whatever the properties that you've got there. You know they're in safe hands. Also, just on a tidbit to that, you also put out a newsletter, do you?

Speaker 2:

bit to that. Do you also put out a newsletter, do you? Yeah, that's one. So this is new and it's um, it's my musings on everything property and business. So, um, current market affairs and trends, uh, bits and pieces that I've read that have influenced what we do day to day. So that'll be released on the fourth wednesday of every month. It might take you two to three minutes to read. If you like it, you subscribe. If you think it's boring, you can ignore it. But, um, yeah, if you put the link in the show notes would be super.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, mark yeah, we'll get that out there. So if you're interested in, uh, having a read of that, see what it's all about, then we'll put a link in there. Click on that link and, um, yeah, I'm sure there'll be some content there for you to be able to read. I love all of that sort of thing as well. I mean it's great. So I'll be checking that out myself. So if anybody was sort of getting started maybe getting out there at the moment, what sort of advice would you give them, john?

Speaker 2:

A couple of bits, and quite tactical ones, which worked well for us. I think if you most people are trying to get started, we'll probably be consuming some productive content. They might have some apprehensions about how they're going to source for first deal as well. If you're tuning into your podcast, that's a big first step. Again, if we're kind of looking at the graded exposure stuff, if you just said for okay, for the next six months I'm going to uh listen to a business, a property podcast, uh, on the way to work five days a week I'm also going to read, uh, five pages of a business property psychology, persuasion, negotiation book, whatever. So you did that five days a week. You also kind of inverted a problem if you've got. If there's some people who kind of look at you like you've got two heads when you talk to them about your aspiring property business, I'd probably encourage you to minimize that time. Um, and then the last one would be again, joe attends uh at least one property network in a meeting a month. If you can do two brilliant joe, after six months of doing that, even if you just go to the networking event with the agenda of uh to learn and see what strategy suits you? You you'll be feeling a bit more positive, won't you? Now you still might think how am I going to close that first deal? One sorry, two things that worked well for us. So if you're looking at the HMO management of a HMO rent-to-rent model, joe, if you don't own a HMO and manage any at this stage, then you might be looking at letting an agent in the room who say you've got 100 units under management, okay. So how are you going to get around that? What if you offered to one of the landlords who you've got to know First tenant fined. Second tenant fined, both free. If you like the service, if you think it's good, we charge £ pounds, thereafter, no obligation. Once you get to know these guys at these events, you'll realize they're quite generous and if they like your service and you deliver well, you'll get the business right. So that worked for us. That got us a hmo management deal over the line.

Speaker 2:

Above and beyond the guy who's got 100 units in the room, I'd say, if you're looking at again just a bit of a tactical one if you're looking at, say, uh, sa management, and again somebody else in the room who's got two dozen sa managements, you don't have any joke. How are you going to compete? So one way to get around that is offer the landlord something they can't refuse. So say, if they make a thousand pound a month, excluding the mortgage on a on the buy to let at present, you could say, over that 12 months, if, after our management fees and expenses, you don't make at least one, one pence more profit than you buy to let, we will re-let that property uh, you know, on open rent, uh, to a family, to some younger professionals, at the end of that 12 month duration.

Speaker 2:

Now you know, if you signed up to your course, you got handy with the numbers, you know how to stack your deals. The chances of that happening is super modest, isn't it? And that way you've, you've made them an offer that is above and beyond what any any other management group will make. And again, that's how we closed our first SA management deal. Now just do a bit more due diligence on that one. So you do need to agree with numbers and figures and expenses with the landlord up front, just so at the back end there's there's no kind of a gray areas like. But those were two things that worked well for us might work well for your listeners I love it, thinking outside the box.

Speaker 1:

Make them an offer they cannot refuse. Uh, and it's not all about money. You know the money will come by doing a good job. So, like john says, make them an offer to say let's have a go with this. You know we're going to put time and effort into this. It's going to cost us in time and effort and things and obviously marketing, but if it doesn't work out, we're not going to leave you in limbo. What we'll do is we'll convert it back to what it was before, but if it goes right, you're going to make even more money.

Speaker 1:

Your properties are going to have all these benefits. So, yeah, don't just have to follow everybody or get intimidated by people that have got more properties. Why would they ever go with me? They're already working with those. That's great advice, john, and really, really good stuff, and it's great to see and hear as well. So it's been great to have you on, my friend. Always a pleasure to see you. It'd be great to get you back in the future as well, see what you're up to, see how things are going for your good self.

Speaker 2:

Um, anybody that's sort of sat on the fence, maybe thinking about doing some service accommodation training or rent to rent hmo training. What would you say to them? It'll just give you the clarity and and the roadmap and the support network. It's a. It's a difficult thing to get started on if you're just doing it on your own, whereas you know, if you select your training provider sensibly, such as yourselves, they've got clear and obvious testimonials. You know you could probably, let's say, for example, you try and do it on your own, it might take you five years, whereas if you do it with the right support and you might be talking about 18 months and you can just grow and scale at a much bigger rate and with less things breaking and less stress because you've got that network.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no nice, thank you. Thank you, my friend. Thank you, yeah, so do check out thepropertyunleashedcom for more tools and resources and there's free stuff on there as well to help you and support you. Well, great to have you on, john. Thank you for joining me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's been brilliant, Mark. Thanks very much for the opportunity.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it's great. It's been a long time coming. My friend and I got you in the end, so, no, that's great. That's great. So if you've enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like, subscribe and share it with anybody you think it will help. If you're based in the north of Yorkshire and you have a property there, then in the show notes you'll be able to reach out to John and his company there and, of course, do check out his newsletter as well, which is coming out every month.

Speaker 1:

It's not going to spam you or anything like that. It's just got helpful tips, tricks in your property investing and, of course, in building businesses and whatever. Mindset stuff he's caught up in as well Because he reads a lot of books and he's got a lot of knowledge. So mindset stuff he's caught up in as well because he reads a lot of books and he's got a lot of knowledge. So it's been an absolute honor to have you on, my friend and, as I say, if you've enjoyed this episode, then make sure you subscribe and you tune in again. If I can help you in any way, shape or form as well, then do reach out to me and until the next episode you take care and bye. For now you